View Full Version : Topping from the Bottom Information ...
My dear Mistress Sara and I have had discussions on many topics (as you can well imagine) and I thought I'd share two articles I found during one such talk: it's concerning the issue of "Topping from the Bottom" ...
I'm very much into education, learning and studying - it's how I develop new skills and become proficient in the areas I practice. Broadening your horizons and learning and experiencing new things are my passion ... and so I thought each of you may enjoy, and intern learn and find something of use to yourself in these various pieces.
Discussion of course is always enjoyed!
(notice: some of the discussions/articles I'm giving you are from a male Dom perspective ... but it's quite easy enough to put yourself in the opposite station and understand the general concept - so please pardon the switching of roles for this duration)
Is She Afraid of Loosing Control (http://www.takeninhand.com/node/788)
Topping from the Bottom (http://bondage.com/id/13/which/138/show_column.html)
:hornydevil:
Great topic, Jadis...:)
Topping from the bottom, imo, usually occurs for at least one of a number of broad reasons...but, first, the Domme/sub relationship - like all relationships - is very complex. And like all relationships, it rests upon certain basic principles.
The articles that you show us, articulate some of the fundamental issues & mindsets that shape a successful Dominant/submissive arrangement - with much in common with any 'vanilla' relationship....ie personal chemistry, know each other over time, communicate, talk & listen, intelligent flexibility, understand each other's needs, be alert to changing needs, verify compatibility, allow for personal growth & development...and avoid obvious instability of character, or incompatible elements....as well as understand the nature of Dominance, and submission, itself...etc etc
...Beyond these, there is balance...Balance of needs between the Dominant & the submissive...balance within each of the Dominant and the submissive of their own, versus their partner's, needs....balancing this with each of their own changing needs over time...and, finally, balancing of all these needs within the daily imperatives of life, and of life's changing circumstances...
Its a wonder any relationship ever works at all...let alone a D/s relationship...!!...:) ...and, like any relationship, a D/s relationship can only ever be as fulfilling as the level of relevant understanding between the two partners working in tandem.
Some of the reasons why Topping from the bottom occurs, imo, are:
(i) the submissive senses a leadership vacuum from the Dominant - and fills that vacant space with their own decisions/'requests';
(ii) the needs of the submissive are simply not being met - and the submissive is attempting to redress that balance;
(iii) the submissive is not naturally 'submissive' at all - and, is 'directing' proceedings towards their own inclinations;
(iv) One - or both - don't really understand what 'Dominance' or 'submission' really is;
(v) One - or both - just don't know how to make it work to meet either, or both, sets of needs;
(vi) ...and, most common - and most complex - of all...either, or both, are, in reality, only partially 'Dominant', or partially 'submissive', respectively.
On top of this, too often, too much energy goes into reacting to 'symptoms', not 'diseases'...
So, for example, a submissive may be apparantly 'demanding', or 'disobedient', or uncooperative, and the Dominant treats it as a lack of submissive 'attitude' - whereas, in reality, this 'attitude' may be just a symptom of ignorance, or a deeper unhappiness, or of other pressures in their lives...and requires a fuller understanding of what is affecting the sub's mindset, rather than a questioning of the sub's basic 'attitude'.
...Similarly, a Dominant may become distracted, or uncertain, or not communicate direction well, and the submissive may react to it as a lack of Dominant capability - and start to 'demand' - whereas, in reality, this may be a symptom of life pressures, a deeper unhappiness, or changing needs, which needs the sub's support, and care, and understanding, not a demanding disrespect for the Dominant's capability.
Communication - and a true ability to really 'listen' - is the key here....so that the partner's each work on what's really interfering with their relationship - rather than just react to the most immediately obvious behaviour symptom...
And, so, 'topping from the bottom' can have many real, or apparant, causes...or, it may not be actually happening at all - only appear to be so. Human relationships always have many layers to them - and the D/s relationship has many subtleties, as well.
...Most important, is the fact that no person, or relationship, is ever static...it moves all the time, and we must all make small and large judgements and adjustments, within the relationship, every day...
Essentially, I believe the core thing is for each partner to know and understand what 'Dominance' and 'submission' means for each of them - and to be at one on that....and, then, most of all, to know and trust each other's role with complete confidence. Then, to understand - and live - the reality that people are always in a fluid process - ie, expect change, and changeableness, and offer flexibilty. If this is the case, then the question of 'topping' is likely to have been sorted out, and agreed, very early on...
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badger7
07-04-2006, 7:02 PM
maybe I'm missing something but what exactly does "topping from the bottom" refer too?
DU007
07-04-2006, 10:53 PM
In a Dominant/submissive relationship, it means that the submissive person (or 'bottom'), attempts to manipulate, or manage, the Dominant (the 'top')...
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Great topic, Jadis...:)
Essentially, I believe the core thing is for each partner to know and understand what 'Dominance' and 'submission' means for each of them - and to be at one on that....and, then, most of all, to know and trust each other's role with complete confidence. Then, to understand - and live - the reality that people are always in a fluid process - ie, expect change, and changeableness, and offer flexibilty. If this is the case, then the question of 'topping' is likely to have been sorted out, and agreed, very early on...
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Wonderful take/information - I really enjoyed reading your response! I admit that for every relationship (especially in the D/s relationship) that there are far too many different variants that contribute to any one situation. And there are situations when - though not necessaryily accepted - but topping from the bottom is tollerated for what ever given reason (I've been in a few of those: especially when you're with someone new, teaching and training them and they don't even know what they want - yet - so sometimes it comes out through play and thus becomes realized without actual verbal explanation ... it's not necessarily an act of defiance - but one of sudden awakening that they haven't been able, or don't know how, to communicate as yet - so you always have to watch and be aware of what they're doing, why and adjust accordingly).
Thanks so much for your input!
Thanks, Jadis...glad you enjoyed the thoughts...
You make a great point, that I missed - ie that often (especially with a new sub) the sub, through inexperience, doesn't yet know what they need - or what their limits are. And, so, the Dominant is faced with 'feedback' from the sub - or apparant 'requests' - and this may be thought of by some Dommes as 'topping'. Often its just a sub trying to help the Domme know them, as they discover themselves...(love your description of a 'sudden awakening'...:))
Its really about leadership, isn't it? A confident Domme will understand that they are charged with the responsibility for creating the 'tone & style' of what is acceptable, whilst taking into account, the nature, and needs, of their sub. If a sub is motivated by pleasing the Domme - then they are unlikely to be trying to 'top'. So, the Domme will need to develop a leadership style that gets the best from their sub - and the finest way of achieving that, is to lead the sub into a mindset that they really want - or, better, need - to please and satisfy...
...An old classic Bob Dylan line comes to mind: "...she knows what she wants, but I know what she needs..."...Now, that's leadership....:).
Having said all this - we should never forget that someone better be in charge of the D/s relationship....and it better not be the sub...!!....:)
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...An old classic Bob Dylan line comes to mind: "...she knows what she wants, but I know what she needs..."...Now, that's leadership....:).
Having said all this - we should never forget that someone better be in charge of the D/s relationship....and it better not be the sub...!!....:)
.
Absolutely fabulous point (and incredible quote: I love it!) And thus the pleasure of a D/s relationship ... you're always learning, you're always exploring, you're always stretching out beyond the limits.
I'm bumping this old conversation of mine because, with some of the new faces ... I'd love to revisit :)
Daethian
04-24-2007, 2:50 PM
I read the first article...not sure what I should have come away with as it seems to be common sense that you would check out a partner before giving up control?? Especially a woman...even a Dominant woman could find herself alone with a lunatic.
I'm not sure I know what Taken In Hand is all about. I could use a Cliff Notes version if someone is so inclined to help me out :D I'm off to read the other now...
Daethian
04-24-2007, 3:00 PM
Perhaps there are different ideas/methods of topping from the bottom. In my mind, when you have a sub/slave that intentionally misbehaves in hopes of getting a favorite punishment in return...that too is topping from the bottom. In moderation, it is mildly amusing especially when said sub/slave gets something entirely different than what they were hoping for LOL Something they happen to dislike in fact.
A negative, damaging topping from the bottom would be a sub/slave challenging the authority of their Dom or calling it into question whether publically or privately. That would be a sign of a serious problem in the relationship.
Perhaps there are different ideas/methods of topping from the bottom. In my mind, when you have a sub/slave that intentionally misbehaves in hopes of getting a favorite punishment in return...that too is topping from the bottom. In moderation, it is mildly amusing especially when said sub/slave gets something entirely different than what they were hoping for LOL Something they happen to dislike in fact.
A negative, damaging topping from the bottom would be a sub/slave challenging the authority of their Dom or calling it into question whether publically or privately. That would be a sign of a serious problem in the relationship.
You'd be surprised how many people put their bodies and mind's in the care of someone they haven't taken the time to get to know and trust (of course, to each their own - but I wouldn't scene ... and haven't ... with someone I haven't taken great time and pains to get to know intimately: besides - it increases My pleasure greatly to know the individual enough to know what will twist them the best way possible). I've seen some pretty damaged slaves/subs - emotionally and physically - beyond sane levels ... just by skipping that very fundamental truth.
As for the types of topping: I completely agree. Sometimes it's done in a mutual and pleasant manner ... but there are always extremes. And when someone is "misbehaving" to get a punishment: it might be topping, but you're also aware of what they're doing (most aren't very subtle) and can react and respond accordingly (as you mentioned: I love seeing them get that look like "oh shit, that wasn't supposed to happen" heh). But the damaging level of it is rather obvious if you're not in a well understood relationship.
As mentioned in previous posts: I think the actual "understanding" of it is a very personal thing, and very individual to each relationship ... no two are going to be exactly alike. And each day it can be different as well: sometimes you might find it amusing ... sometimes irritating if you're attempting to do something specific and their maniplations and games are causing adverse effects. It can also depend on the TYPE of relationship: in my every day relationship, of which BDSM is a huge (but not central ie: not 24/7 type) part ... I tollerate more because of the intimate and partnered level. In a solely play/scene relationship with someone who's primary function is as a sub only ... then I find that my tollerance is much reduced and my scene's reflect that in severity and seriousness.
How's that for my .02 heh ;)
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