Contrary Ideas ... (Warning: Religion Mentioned)

[Jadis]

This may be a hot topic, so ... if at any time ... I deem this thread getting out of hand, for any reason: I will swap it to the flame pit immediately or delete it all together (depending on what's necessary).

Well not even really sure how to go about asking this or what. I live in utah in the US and if you don't know much about utah we are like 80% Mormon. Now mormon is a different religion some have even gone as far to call it a cult. They have some pretty strict rules and are very very conservative. So anyone that would be into like bondage facesitting and any other "kinky" stuff would probly be frowned on fast.

What is really ironic about the conservative "type" (not ALL, but some...maybe even a majority), and the religious type: is how unaccepting they are of people who do not share their same beliefs/viewpoints.

I'm glad you included "not ALL" because that is definatly not true for many people who would classify themselves as both conservative and religious such as myself.

http://www.mistressdestiny.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61093

A comment made on another thread made me stop and think - and being a personal topic of my own ... I decided it would be interesting to see what the (civil) response would be: what place, if any, does religion have in your own life as it pertains to BDSM/fetish? If you are relgious, how have you melded to the two - seemingly - separate ideals?

xox

Lady Jadis

[DU007]

For me, its easy....Religion has NO part in my life - at all....Zero....So, there's no conflict - within myself - with my own fetish life...


But, I'd also be really interested in hearing how those that do have religion, reconcile their beliefs with their fetish....For many, I'm sure it'd be a real struggle...

.

[Rennoch]

heh. easiest thing in the world for my faith. sexual activity is considered a form of worship for several deities in several faiths, including Ueuecoyotl(Aztec god of sex and irresponsible gaiety.), Anath(Ancient Semitic goddess of love and war - nice combo there eh? sex and violence :P ), Ishtar(Mesopotamian goddess of sex and war - theme here...), Medb(Celtic Goddess of sexuality, intoxication and war - Frats boys be warned ^_^), Innanna(Sumerian goddess of sex and fertility)... the list goes on.

for my own faith, the surrender of trust combined with the act of sexual pleasure - in any form acceptable by consent - is akin to spiritual ecstasy. in fact we borrowed tantrism from india :P

[rugman]

What is really ironic about the conservative "type" (not ALL, but some...maybe even a majority), and the religious type: is how unaccepting they are of people who do not share their same beliefs/viewpoints.
Heh heh. Try being as philosophically conservative (though socially pretty liberal) as I am, living in the Seattle area. It gives "unaccepting" a whole new dimension. You'd think I sported horns and ate small poodles for breakfast (when, in fact, everybody knows I prefer large poodles! :D )

I'm not religious. And when I used to be there was always a conflict in my mind because my Baptist upbringing taught me two things I later walked away from: sexual intolerance and a belief that women should be subservient to men. I dislike having conflicting ideas (to say the least) and so, never having been a very strong "believer" I had to ditch one or the other when I reached mental adulthood. Guess which one went over the side?

How others of a fundamental Christian, Jewish or Muslim faith square that particular circle is a mystery to me. I'd be very interested in reading how they do it. Not skeptical, I'm just curious.

[africanus54]

Both my wife and myself come from Catholic backgrounds, i was even an altar boy, but i dumped religion a long time ago and now only go to church if it is a funeral, wedding, or if my kids who are all in their respective school choirs are performing.As for my wife she still reads her bible and her daily word, but she is not into the fire breathing hell and brimstone type of religion.

[ct1900]

ZERO. I think all religion is superstition. People are afraid of death, so they made up heaven and reincarnation. Plus, mommy and daddy told us when we were young that if we did not believe it, we would go to hell. Most people are too afraid to give it up.

[rugman]

but she is not into the fire breathing hell and brimstone type of religion.
How about that "she will crush his head under her heel" part? :D

[equidum]

Merveilleuse Lady Jadis,

Thanks for that great topic!

Karl Marx said : "religion is the opium of the people ..." I stopped smoking "that" catholic opium a long time ago, which, hopefully, gave me a greater freedom of thought and a higher level of tolerance ..... But I won't say for sure that I am really freed ....

Actually I'm still wondering whether my submisive/masochistic side couldn't be not a new kind of religious humility, another form of that self-abnegation which is said to be a great way to try and walk in Jesus" steps ......?! My suffering under the crushing weigt of a wicked woman would play the role of the self inflicted chastisement of a monk in his cell, and, as Jesus did on his cross, I would then beseech God Almighty to "forgive Her...She does not know what She's doing ...." All my life, I would religiously suffer for Her, offer my left cheek after She slappped the right one, wash Her feet, be forever humble, and, at the end of the day, I would happily offer my life for Her, and blame, NOT HER, but my father for all this inhuman suffering....." Elie, Elie, lama sabbactani !" ( Which means : Father, father, why did You forsake me. The last words of Jesus on his cross ...).

It's tough to get rid of the teachings of the "good fathers" .. It's maybe easier to twist them, distort them to a point where they will help fulfilling my own dream and thus be
in the light of God,

Your humble slave

Jean-Marie

[africanus54]

[QUOTE=kenrug;628451]How about that "she will crush his head under her heel" part? :
Ken that i will gladly do without hesitation :D Ken i am not a religious fanatic, but i do believe that there is a God who i worship in my own quiet way, i do not wear religion on my sleeves, nor do i condemn people who are atheist or agnostics, hell i am married to an atheist who i love with all my heart and soul. I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher last night and during an interview with Republican Presidential candidate Gov. Huckerby, Bill asked the question about his religious believes and he said among other things that during debates questions such as whether you belief in evolution or creation should not be asked and i agree with him being a person of faith in my opinion does not prevent you from holding high public office.
ATH

[rugman]

ATH, you know I admire you a lot; you're a phenomenal woman, and that you're taking the time to address this from the middle of a zone recently devastated by one of nature's Furies just impresses me more. You are the soul of Christian humanity and charity, helping your fellow man as a true and earnest expression of yourself and your love for your God. I really find it difficult to find fault with that, and I won't.

To me you're the ultimate Christian I was taught about in my youth: showing your quality and love by your actions, as opposed to haranguing everybody else for not living according your creed.

I remember reading once about knowing a tree by its fruit.

...

I am notoriously harsh on religion. Got a reputation, I do.

To me it is the intentional walking away from thought; made-up answers to a set of questions that are inherently not answerable. I hold logic and knowledge in the highest regard since it has been the only thing in my life that has never failed me, though I have often failed it. Never has a theoretical being helped me through a tough time, solved a problem, paid a bill. And I would not want one to: if I fail it will be because I made an error, and if I succeed it will be due to my own thought and ability.

It’s a high wire act, sure. If I fall there is no net. But I don’t want one. I measure myself by what I can see, smell, taste, feel and put in the bank. Can I create a good and happy life for me, my progeny and my wife – that’s a valid measure. Whether I’m successfully keeping some abstract construct in the heavens pleased with my progress seems a bit too much fuss for me.

And, as you might know, there is another current thread here at MDFF where people are stressing themselves needlessly (IMO) about whether their love of dominant women is condemning them to hell (link: http://mistressdestiny.com/forums/showthread.php?p=627780#post627780 )

I see my comrades going through this occasionally over the years and it, frankly, pisses me off no end. Perhaps it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of their religion (which is why this thread was such an inspired idea) but if you read that thread you will feel their unnecessary torment coming off your computer monitor. Why does this idea, religion, cause such people to suffer so? These folks have enough on their mind as it is, why add one more goddamn thing like feeling unloved by a ghost in the sky?

People borrow pain for no good reason at all. And it’s sad.

[Jadis]

-LOVE- the discussion here (and I do plan to add my two cents, just I haven't been able as of late) but I'd love to see more information ... and I really appreciate the respect and the manners: considering such a sensitive subject.

[equidum]

I am very surprised indeed to read so many comments stating that religion has but little importance, in a nearly all-anglo-saxon, primarily American forum !!! I thought it was an American exception to be at the same time a highly democratic, hyper developped nation, AND still be a highly religious country...... Usually, it is either/or, not both ....!

Or, maybe, people in this forum are not typical American citizens .... ???? The NewYork/SanFrancisco type, rather than the Middle-West/Bible-belt genotype ????

Well, I'm puzzled, but not unhappy !

Equidum

[rugman]

???? The NewYork/SanFrancisco type, rather than the Middle-West/Bible-belt genotype ????
I don't intend to dominate this thread, though I am an opinionated cuss to be sure. However, I will speak up for either me or my point of view.

So, am I a NYC/SF type? Not at all. Am I Boise Idaho? No, not much of that, either.

Politics is beyond the scope of this thread, so I won’t get into it much. But when I read or hear “New York” or “San Francisco” in this context that’s what I think about. My politics is well on the record: national security hawk without the baggage of the chicken (kind of), social liberal (gay marriage, etc.) without excusing people imposing their choices on others, and "don’t harsh the Constitution!": it’s a good-enough contract as evidenced by the fact that I still choose to live here under it. Which I don’t have to if I don’t want to.

So no, I don’t fit in Seattle any more than I would in Memphis or Helena. What I seek is philosophical consistency, and ideologies just don’t do well with that – any more than religions do. Which is why I’m not an adherent of either.

You could put that in your pipe and smoke it, except that somebody will try to stop you.

I think I’ve made my point.

[rugman]

"You seem filled with rhetoric and strong emotion."

I will not retreat from my strong feelings. I consider it a firm intensity, and I do not apologize for that.

You seem to object to being certain. If that's the case, then let me disabuse you of that impression. I am always open to being corrected because, as I have explained here and elsewhere, I believe in fact. If fact proves me wrong then I will adjust to that.

I'll admit that I am offended, sir, at your characterization of my actions as "suffocating" of the opinions of others. Unless you imply that I take untoward action as an officiate of this place then you must mean that I happen to bury others in other ways. If so, please tell me how, and also tell me how that is invalid.

You proceed as if I come from a position of "righteousness." I do no such thing. I am like you in that I have an opinion or two. That is what was asked for in this thread and I have given it.

[rugman]

Marcus, was there some reason - specifically - why you wanted to piss on my back, or are you just going to walk away?

'Cause I don't like your tone.

[cap]

I'd just rather that God judged me for my actions than other people.Coming from an orthodox Hindu family, I don't let religion get in the way of the kinky stuff. If anything I'm more worried about how I'll break the news to a wife I'll barely know for 3-6 months before I marry her. Alas, the woes of an arranged marriage!!:D

[rugman]

Is the concept of a rhetorical question is not within your experience?

I appreciate your correction of my statement; I always needed a copy editor. But nowhere do I see you disagreeing with what I’ve said. You’ve disagreed with my delivery, or my pretentiousness (heh, I am who I am), but not with my irritation at a religion that suppresses people for their belief in a shadow in the corner.

Can you explain that, please?

I appreciate you calling me out on my rather strongly-worded responses here. I’d labored under the misunderstanding that this was a thread created to bring out opinions. But you’ve set me straight on that.

Oh, and I may not be righteous, and you may be, but you still misspelled pejorative.

[equidum]

I don't intend to dominate this thread, though I am an opinionated cuss to be sure. However, I will speak up for either me or my point of view.

So, am I a NYC/SF type? Not at all. Am I Boise Idaho? No, not much of that, either.

Politics is beyond the scope of this thread, so I won’t get into it much. But when I read or hear “New York” or “San Francisco” in this context that’s what I think about. My politics is well on the record: national security hawk without the baggage of the chicken (kind of), social liberal (gay marriage, etc.) without excusing people imposing their choices on others, and "don’t harsh the Constitution!": it’s a good-enough contract as evidenced by the fact that I still choose to live here under it. Which I don’t have to if I don’t want to.

So no, I don’t fit in Seattle any more than I would in Memphis or Helena. What I seek is philosophical consistency, and ideologies just don’t do well with that – any more than religions do. Which is why I’m not an adherent of either.

You could put that in your pipe and smoke it, except that somebody will try to stop you.

I think I’ve made my point.

Hi, Kenrug


I thought it was clear in my mail that I mentioned NYC and SFO only because they are said to be less religious than most cities in the US....

I do not want to embark on a political discussion, when the topic of this thread is religion and BDSM ..... I've already got a <involuntary> record on this forum, I'm in probation of sort, so, it's not ME who will hijack a thread, especially one proposed by the merveilleuse Lady Jadis ....

I'm glad to hear that you are a liberal, constitutionnal, American hawk, open to others, in quest of philosophical consistency, suspicious of ideologies and religions..... Nothing wrong in that for me. Absolutely nothing at all ! But, with all due respect, it's off topic, my friend!

Now ..... I'm not sure to really understand what you mean with that pipe smoking suggestion of yours .... I tend to believe though, it doesn't sound friendly.... Am I wrong ?

Anyway, have a nice day!

Equidum

[rugman]

First, my “pipe” comment was an attempt at humor based on an American phrase. I wasn’t being hostile, and I’m sorry it seemed that I was.

But you are right that I got off topic here, in a way, and since I’ve already stated my opinions about religion – as it relates to BDSM – I think I’ve said quite enough.

Anyhow, no hostility on my part towards you, Equidum.

[equidum]

First, my “pipe” comment was an attempt at humor based on an American phrase. I wasn’t being hostile, and I’m sorry it seemed that I was.

But you are right that I got off topic here, in a way, and since I’ve already stated my opinions about religion – as it relates to BDSM – I think I’ve said quite enough.

Anyhow, no hostility on my part towards you, Equidum.



All right, Kenrug! I am the one who didn't understand, <Sorry!> but I prefer it that way, by far!

I've read your threads on religion/BDSM, and I mostly agree with all what you say. However, it is possible that different religions lead to different possible behaviours. I don't know much about baptism, nor, actually, about any other protestant form of christianism, but I'm sure they don't teach the same level of resignedness to the conditions we were placed in at our very birth, nor the same kind of social submissiveness, as the ones being taught by the catholics priests a few decades ago in Europe, and still now in poor countries!

And that's why I think that catholicism could somehow be considered as a very good training shool for submissives. I don't mean it makes submissives out of us, of course, but it certainly gives us a pretty comprehensive instructions manuel for slavery, a perfect "modus operandi" actually : To shift from catholicism to slavery, we just need a psychanalytic transfer! We replace "God" in our daily prayers and actions by Master, Mistress, so and so ... Lady Jadis... Mistress Sara... and here we are, a quintessence of "Uncle Tom", ready to serve, suffer and endure everything and more from our new deity, kiss Her feet when She maltreats us, and sing Her praises to the sky for the rest of the time...

Well ... At least, I think it worked that way for me !

Equidum

[Jadis]

(note: I've not ignored the conversation since now - I've been reading it quite eagerly ... but I thought I'd give my standing before proceeding)

I doubt this is going to win me favors or much understanding - but here we go:

I was raised, fully believe in (still) - and continue to consider myself - a practicing Christian. I've made a post or two in this vein on my Myspace ... and those that know me know this as well (it's like I don't bother hiding my Dominant aspects, I don't hide my religion as well). But I still believe and hold to the tenants of my belief as I was raised (I wont go into what those are, this is not the place). I don't ask anyone to believe as I do - and I don't push my beliefs or feelings on anyone else: I hold to what I hold - and to each their own (I can respect and admire everyone's differences: I have friends - close friends - that are of all sorts ... Wiccan, Agnostic, Atheist, Catholic, Mormon).

But I wont deny that I did have a bit of a conflict with my interests as it pertains to my beliefs (the old testiment is quite obviously male oriented and we all know that I don't abide by male Domination) - and frankly, I still search for answers: but I feel pretty good where I stand right now. I keep to some very specific limits in my relationships (ie: no sexual congress outside of my committed relationship ... for example: I don't bare face sit anyone but my fiancee) that help me maintain, what I feel, is my adequate ballance. As long as I'm holding to the principals (yanno: thou shalt not kill, though shalt not commit adultery ... the being a good person and caring heart - I believe that) I have yet to find anything that says "thou shalt not flog thy fiancee!".

No, I'm not under the illusion that I am the best example of Christianity and that I am still considered fallible and failing (it's the basis for religion: that everyone is a sinner and falls short of the glory of God) - but that is true for humanity and we are all in the process of reinventing and bettering ourselves every day. I strive to be the best person I can be: the best sort of friend, the best sort of parent and lover and person ... I try to help where I can and I ask for forgiveness when I fall (which I do, and will do - again - often).

And there we go -chuckles- I'm sure everyone is rolling their eyes now ... but I am who I am ~_^

xox Lady Jadis

[equidum]

(note: I've not ignored the conversation since now - I've been reading it quite eagerly ... but I thought I'd give my standing before proceeding)



No, I'm not under the illusion that I am the best example of Christianity and that I am still considered fallible and failing (it's the basis for religion: that everyone is a sinner and falls short of the glory of God) - but that is true for humanity and we are all in the process of reinventing and bettering ourselves every day. I strive to be the best person I can be: the best sort of friend, the best sort of parent and lover and person ... I try to help where I can and I ask for forgiveness when I fall (which I do, and will do - again - often).

And there we go -chuckles- I'm sure everyone is rolling their eyes now ... but I am who I am ~_^

xox Lady Jadis


Merveilleuse lady Jadis,

I think nobody will roll his eyes, merveilleuse Lady, as what You describe is, imo, the best possible trade off : If God exists, and if the Church says the truth, You will probably have to spend just a few centuries in Purgatory, and then eventually win Paradise . If he doesn't exist, if the Church is talking nonsense, You lose nothing by behaving the way you do, as, as You say, we all more or less try and follow the same behavioural patterns, with/without Faith, with/without religion.

On the other hand, all those who arrogantly claim that the Church lies, and God is either a fiction or, at least, totally unknown to the whole mankind, run a risk, if they're wrong, to go forever to hell !!!! A terrible punishment made even more cuel for the members of this board, who will thus be doomed, on top of the rest, to NEVER meet Your adorable Highness.....!!!!!

But I'm not sure I will change my mind, though... I'm not that much interested in a paradise where You wouldn't be THE goddess, and where I doubt Jesus would allow me to be

Your most humble slave

Jean-Marie

[ct1900]

Interesting thing about Purgatory. It has no Biblical basis whatsoever. Totally made up concept. Didn't the Catholic church just do away with it, or was that Limbo, the other totally non Biblical place?

[equidum]

Hi, CT900

I think Limbo is now an obsolete concept a regards unbaptized children, dead foetuses .... Howevr, it is still the place where ALL the dead were kept waiting for Jesus' death ad resurrection ....: The Jews, the Egyptians, the homo sapiens, the Neandertal .... They were all in Limbo until Jesus came back from his Earth trip, and entered Paradise, showing them the way ( Those who deserved it of course ...!).

I read that Lucy is going to the US, < Houston actually for a start> ,where She will stay for the next 6 years. Lucy is a three million year old Australopithecus skeleton, your and my true grandmother in fact, and a totally non biblical concept as well, as, according to the Bible, the Genesis took place within 7 days, just a few thousand years ago....

The Catholics, with the Limbo concept, at least gave Her a chance to join Paradise, and i'm sure She seized that golden opportunity on Ascension Day, 1974 years ago ;-)) .....

Maybe ......She is waiting for you to kiss Her australopithecus ass and pussy, my friend, while Jesus will be busy somewhere else, of course ...... :-))

Agnostically yours

Equidum

[ct1900]

That's kind of my point. How can a thing that exists for eternity become obsolete? Who declared it to be obsolete? Did God come down from heaven and say that he had closed it down? It is not a Biblical concept. Totally made up.

[equidum]

That's kind of my point. How can a thing that exists for eternity become obsolete? Who declared it to be obsolete? Did God come down from heaven and say that he had closed it down? It is not a Biblical concept. Totally made up.

Come on CT900 ! If you were a good catholic, you would know for granted that the pope is infallible. Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now the pope, declared a few years ago that the Limbo was not a basic concept of the Faith, and could then be discarded............ From now on the kids who die unbaptized will rely for their eternal salvation, on the boundless misericord of the Lord.

And Benedict 16th knows what he is talking about, Godammit !!!! No need for God nor Goddess to come back down on Earth for such a tiny detail !!!!

So be it ! Amen...

Equidum

[ooglyboogly]

Well when priests are forced to remain celibate they start molesting the choirboys, its happened all over the world

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1923484.stm

sooo maybe they should be allowed to get their jollies on once in a while, for the sake of little church going boys everywhere....

[weallseve]

I agree, ooglyboogly. It is an unnatural state that some of them obviously cannot maintain throughout their lives. And we do not hear about those who have relations with women, but at least there is consent in those trysts. The Papacy/Roman Catholic Church is as outdated as the Monarchy in England-but the beat goes on.
If Jesus does come back, the Church will be high on his list.

[Jadis]

Really ... church and religion can be two totally separate things: remember - the church is based off humans and their principals ... religion is a belief or personal acceptance of something.

[draculay]

Anyone in any Conservative religion frowning on fetish or kinks would be foolish, as that part of life should need no moderation by man made religion.
Religion is a code on morals and conduct in day to day life and should have no bearing on sexual play unless it involves ADULTERY and other PERVERSIONS that are deemed harmful to other beings...

[worm pa]

I have been an atheist all my life.
I have resigned from church.
I worship beautiful and sexy women (Goddesses).

[Alienlifeform]

Really ... church and religion can be two totally separate things: remember - the church is based off humans and their principals ... religion is a belief or personal acceptance of something.

I like I learned how to use this quote thing nice but yep I agree here thats important to know a difference about it bcuz like me for example I have my beliefs and so but that dont mean I gotta go to a church and follow other peoples beliefs and so how I feel about sex is personal business between me and who I believe in.

[equidum]

I have been an atheist all my life.
I have resigned from church.
I worship beautiful and sexy women (Goddesses).

Why do you worship ONLY the beautiful and the sexy ??? I understand and agree that it is much more pleasant to worship a highly glamorous deity, but why only them ???

I tend to believe that Women are superior, then they are ALL superior, and I think I must worship tem all.

So help me Goddess

Equidum

[rugman]

I tend to believe that Women are superior, then they are ALL superior, and I think I must worship tem all.
Are you serious?!! !!!

There are a very select number of women I like, sometimes even adore, for their individual qualities - not because they happen to be equipped with a vagina.

Corollary: I've known vaginas to be attached to some of the most loathsome creatures on the planet.

I don't know how women will interpret my statement here, but I would hope that they know I don't simply bow down to them because of something given to them at conception... that they'd know my appreciation is based on a mix of my male ardor for women, combined with who I've come to know them to be.

I used to think as you do. Experience, painful and annoying, has taught me the error of that kind of reflexive and baseless credit. And those to whom I give my devotion are truly worthy of it, in my opinion.

I've come to know a fairly large number of women in my life. I'd be devastated if they came to think that I like, admire and appreciate them simply because they're women. "Woman" helps, with men like me, but by no means does it complete the circuit.

[worm pa]

Why do you worship ONLY the beautiful and the sexy ??? I understand and agree that it is much more pleasant to worship a highly glamorous deity, but why only them ???

I tend to believe that Women are superior, then they are ALL superior, and I think I must worship tem all.

So help me Goddess

Equidum

Because only beautiful & sexy women have the influence on me. Other women I find equal with myself. I find the idea of worshipping Paris Hilton laughable but try to stop me worshipping Inés Sastre! You'd have to kill me!

[Sauur]

Well in regards to faith and religion, I am a Christian and I believe Jesus Christ is the savior of all those that believe in him. I have no problem with fetish unless they involve something that would be sinful. If your lying in order to carry out your fetish or fantasy then obviously it is something sinful. If your not comitting any sin then your not comitting any sin! No where in the bible does it even suggest kissing a woman's foot is sinful! It can be argued that trample, smothering, ect are violence but if both parties are willing I don't see any sin.

That being said I feel it is important to note that even if something is sinful I don't think there should be any moral legislation on it. It is not the job of the government to regulate morality.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

As somone who is typically conservative (really more libertarian) and also religious I am saddened by how many people I know want to ban all things they consider sinful. As if everyone in any church across the country could ever even agree on that!

[africanus54]

Like you Sauur i am a person of faith, and like you i am also saddened by people of faith who wish to ban all things that they consider sinful. I keep reminding these people that the ten commandments are a wonderful guide to how people should try and live their lives, but in Western Democracies only two are against the law of the land, thou shall not kill and thou shall not steal.
ATH

[rugman]

Well, I don't want to open up a war here, but I have a number of strong objections to religion. And it seems that they grow in number and justification each day.

Most, I think, will agree that it's counterproductive (to say the least) to have religious beliefs written into the law (other than those that already have another logical justification). So no need to elaborate on that.

But my two current most prominent objections are: 1) the turning of man's mind against his body by insisting that denial of pleasure is virtuous, and that experiencing pleasure is sinful. I live by a standard of ethics, which are based on my mind's evaluation of what is good, but if I harm no one by my experiencing pleasure then there is no logical reason, in my thinking, to elevate its denial to some kind of goal.

2) The negation of mind. One of the things I value most is my mind, and I eventually objected to and rejected religion's insistence that I had to subjugate my own decision-making to some minister's view of what his god said I should think and believe. Without providing any kind of proof that either the minister's interpretation was accurate, or proof of the authority of his god to have superior insight into what is good for me. I have faith in my wife, but that faith is backed up by years of experiencing her decision-making. But some stranger, who calls him self a minister, has no such background of credibility with me, and he's also the same guy who is telling me he speaks for his god. (let's not get entangled in semantics here)

On top of that, I'm not supposed to attempt to understand the logic of this god person - mysterious ways, and all that. So I'm left with some random person telling me that his god will burn me for all eternity if I don't do what he says, but I'm not supposed to question the authority behind that command (also a burning offense), or even the thinking behind the rule. I'm just supposed to set aside my own mind experience and judgment, and take this guy's word for it.

Everybody is free to make up their own mind on this, but that's my point of view.

[worm pa]

Good points kenrug.
I agree with your thoughts.

I try to live my life avoiding religions, in my secular way worshipping Goddesses.
Fortunately I live in Finland, a relatively secular country.