MD Changed since I started.

Sep 4, 2010
218
0
16
#1
In the rules.
(12) The fetish Forums are designated for the enjoyment of people who want to discuss their interests in an environment that is relaxed and friendly. If you get into an argument there take it to the Flame Pit.

That may be how it was designed and use to be but now it’s more a commercial site and we’ve lost some major players because of it. Now there are some on here that think they are the king shit and have polluted this forum. Sometimes it sounds as if the moderators where paid off or maybe they are the moderators under a different name who knows.

(18) Since everyone and their brother seems to be posting spams for their new sites around here, the following Rule is in place :
If there is no link back to http://www.mistressdestiny.com/forums/ on your site, do not bother to advertise your site here.

That’s a self-serving loophole creating a HUGE gray area to let commercial sites run amuck.
Paybacks, I’m sure.
(19) To that end, moderators are granted a certain degree of latitude in regulating member activities on the Forums, and this latitude is not restricted to the set of written Rules.
Understanding that no person has perfect judgment, MDFF welcomes discussions, critiques and criticisms of moderator, super moderator and administrator actions.

Another self-serving, disclaimer creating a gray loophole for the unexplained favoritism.
Which leads us back to: (5) Any complaining will be cheerfully ignored.
I’m willing to bet that any suggestion put forth that might touch a nerve will be treated as a complaint and ignored.
AND who picks what sites get put on the Top and right side? More payout.
 

bfrug

Moderator
Aug 7, 2002
9,520
260
83
SE UK
#2
Forums, all forums whatever the subject change over the years & MDFF's is no exception.

John, our host wrote (or co wrote the rules) - it must have escaped your notice, but John owns the forum & provides the bandwidth for us to use. The moderators give up their free time to carry out most of the day to day work to keep it running. I don't always agree to what the moderators do (especially one of them LOL) but they do an excellent thankslass job.

I'm not too keen on the "commercialisation either but you soon learn how to avoid the commercial stuff you don't like (in my case all the "Mark" clones).

Maybe, if you had contributed more over the time you have been a member you would have less to complain about ?
 

Pincushion

MissBelladonnahs Property
May 30, 2008
192
1
0
English Midlands
#3
Forums, all forums whatever the subject change over the years & MDFF's is no exception.

John, our host wrote (or co wrote the rules) - it must have escaped your notice, but John owns the forum & provides the bandwidth for us to use. The moderators give up their free time to carry out most of the day to day work to keep it running. I don't always agree to what the moderators do (especially one of them LOL) but they do an excellent thankslass job.

I'm not too keen on the "commercialisation either but you soon learn how to avoid the commercial stuff you don't like (in my case all the "Mark" clones).

Maybe, if you had contributed more over the time you have been a member you would have less to complain about ?
You are right of course: *Everything* changes over the years and so, of course, yeah, MDFF is no exception.
Some things change for the better, some things change for the worse and some things just - well - change.
That doesn't mean a person has to *like* the change though does it? Evidently Highstepper doesn't like the changes and neither do I in this case!

Why must the status quo have escaped Highstepper's notice? Are you so convinced that your point of view is the correct one that anyone who fails to share it must also have failed to grasp all the facts? It reminds me of people who used to complain that Tony Blair didn't listen. No... he did listen he just didn't respond in the way that you thought he should do.......

And no, I'm sorry - for the next bit you are quite wrong: It is not possible to avoid the commercialisation because the whole atmosphere of commercialisation has pervaded the entire forum. You mention John in your post - I remember the times when he was a regular poster on these forums [and their precursors] many years ago. It strikes me that John has been commercially extremely successful and yet in his days of active posting he somehow managed to take part in a community without prostituting it. I salute him for that and wish that there were more like him.

Why the hell would Highstepper have wished to contribute more during his time here if he doesn't like the way things are going - he'd have been a bit of a voice in the wilderness if he had wouldn't he? The fact is that the "community" which I have known (in recent days and in days when I used other Nicks) doesn't exist any more. It is gone. It is pining for the Fjords. It is an ex - community. The Lifestyle players who shared some of their life with us have all retreated and found pleasure elsewhere. The couples with loving and enduring fetish relationships have resorted to keeping this place at arm's length.

As a new community of sharing the latest news on commercial trample - porn or sharing anecdotes of paid - for encounters this place is thriving. The worst possible sin is compromising some producer's copyright whilst moral obligations to treat women well count for nothing and woe betide your standing in the community if you dare to critiscise producers who exploit women. That's the way it is. As you rightly say the moderators work hard and do an excellent job of fulfilling their remit. This latter is the way that it has always been on these forums, on the Daddo's forums and on the Daddo's at College Trample forums.

This seems to be the way that the inevitable change has turned and this seems to be the way to which Highstepper objects. I loathe it too, and like Highstepper I can only bother to post if I can be arsed. Which is not very often.
 

Mistress_B

$ You'll Be Bled Dry $
Feb 7, 2013
413
1
0
East Coast
mistressbellafindom.com
#5
I understand both angles that are being discussed. Having said that; I feel it's nice that I have a place where I can show my stories. For individuals who wish not to read them, then they have a choice... To read, or not to read...

I have my own site, and I do use this community forum to share my experiences to those of which are interested because it is my fetish. Financial Domination and Public Humiliation is my niche. Being able to show off my stable is part of what turns me on... It's my stomping ground.

For individuals to take pride in their accomplishments, and get off on them... What's the difference between that and another fetish? I write stories on my site about different fetishes, and it's an on-going project.

I do not, by no means think my website is going to go above and beyond this forum. This forum has awesome ranking, and is well established. The Admin, and Mods do a great job! I applaud them for everything they do here, as I know what it's like to moderate, and it can be tough to deal with by times.

I thought we were here to help each other with our fetishes by sharing our stories and experiences, and showing commonalities... That's what I'm here for!

Til next time!
 

bfrug

Moderator
Aug 7, 2002
9,520
260
83
SE UK
#6
You are right of course: *Everything* changes over the years and so, of course, yeah, MDFF is no exception.
Some things change for the better, some things change for the worse and some things just - well - change.
That doesn't mean a person has to *like* the change though does it? Evidently Highstepper doesn't like the changes and neither do I in this case!

Why must the status quo have escaped Highstepper's notice? Are you so convinced that your point of view is the correct one that anyone who fails to share it must also have failed to grasp all the facts? It reminds me of people who used to complain that Tony Blair didn't listen. No... he did listen he just didn't respond in the way that you thought he should do.......

And no, I'm sorry - for the next bit you are quite wrong: It is not possible to avoid the commercialisation because the whole atmosphere of commercialisation has pervaded the entire forum. You mention John in your post - I remember the times when he was a regular poster on these forums [and their precursors] many years ago. It strikes me that John has been commercially extremely successful and yet in his days of active posting he somehow managed to take part in a community without prostituting it. I salute him for that and wish that there were more like him.

Why the hell would Highstepper have wished to contribute more during his time here if he doesn't like the way things are going - he'd have been a bit of a voice in the wilderness if he had wouldn't he? The fact is that the "community" which I have known (in recent days and in days when I used other Nicks) doesn't exist any more. It is gone. It is pining for the Fjords. It is an ex - community. The Lifestyle players who shared some of their life with us have all retreated and found pleasure elsewhere. The couples with loving and enduring fetish relationships have resorted to keeping this place at arm's length.

As a new community of sharing the latest news on commercial trample - porn or sharing anecdotes of paid - for encounters this place is thriving. The worst possible sin is compromising some producer's copyright whilst moral obligations to treat women well count for nothing and woe betide your standing in the community if you dare to critiscise producers who exploit women. That's the way it is. As you rightly say the moderators work hard and do an excellent job of fulfilling their remit. This latter is the way that it has always been on these forums, on the Daddo's forums and on the Daddo's at College Trample forums.

This seems to be the way that the inevitable change has turned and this seems to be the way to which Highstepper objects. I loathe it too, and like Highstepper I can only bother to post if I can be arsed. Which is not very often.
Experience on MDFF's (& I have actually been on the forum section from the word go) has taught me that thany people are actually unaware of the fact that John hosts the forum & pays forthe bandwidth. tony blair simply ignored everyone. I express my opinion, nothing more - everyone is entitled to theirs.

I do remember when John took more of an active part posting & agree that he has been very sucessful with his business too. It is simple to ignore overbearing commercial content - over time you get to know whose content to skip over.

& I disagree about the community - there is still a community spirit in MDFF's, not as much as there used to be, but it is still there with the likes of Sinbad & others - you simply need to know where to look. Maybe then, I'm a voice in the wilderness by trying to hang on & keep the community going, or even to try & revive it (as you seem to think its gone). I will carry on until the day it becomes untenable.

I agree that there are less & less people who enjoy their interests posting on here. I can think of at least two Ladies from the Midlands who genuinly enjoy trampling (& other aspects) who no longer post here. The problem is that people can be too inclined to give up easily.

TBH, I would prefer to see the 100% commercial content (those that are simply in in for the money) separate from the amature or "casual" C4S type content, but alas, in a way MDFF's has become a victim of it's own sucess when you look back. I'm sure if Daddo was still around we would still have a stronge sense of community.

If the members that loathe the change could be more "arsed" then the changes, so loathed would not be quite so noticeable.

There are many changes in life thesedays that people don't like - one example is the way people expect to carry on talking on their mobiles to the exclusion of everything else, like at the checkout - I'm glad to see more & more signs now like "if you are more interested in your mobile phone you will not be served" in shops.

At the end of the day, if you don't like change, then don't accept it. If you simply roll over & accept it then you will only have yourself to blame.

Apologies for any typos - made the mistake of cleaning my keyboard yesterday.
 

Mistress_B

$ You'll Be Bled Dry $
Feb 7, 2013
413
1
0
East Coast
mistressbellafindom.com
#7
It takes a lot of work and effort to keep a site like this running.
When you are an owner of a site, everything is on your hands.

You are responsible for the bandwidth cost; for a site like this with a Alexa Ranking of under 100,000 would require a dedicated server and regular maintenance. The owner is responsible for forum script updates, customization work and all related programming, which can run into A LOT of money. Plus you have to deal DDOS attacks, hackers, spambots, and all the other daily crap. This can be a huge headache but yet you're expecting him to post regularly in here as well. Should he not have his own family life, or free time to use as he wishes? Not to mention I'm sure he has side projects outside of this forum on top of that.

Running a site of this size comes at a HUGE cost, both in time and in money. The commericalization aspect is what helps pay for those costs. It's just the reality of how these things work. Complaining about it is like complaining about paying for milk when you don't own your own cow...SOMEBODY pays to produce it for you, and you expect it to run on its own for FREE? Are you paying the site expenses? No? Then live with the way it is.

Also, nobody said you can't post your stories here. There are lots of great experiences shared....embrace them. It's a good mixture of commercial content AND amateur stuff. Nothing wrong with that. It's how the bills get paid while still allowing you to add your own posts at no cost to you. It allows the community to thrive. The 2 midlands ladies can still post; we would love to read their experiences. NO ONE is telling them not to.

I ENCOURAGE my subs to JOIN this forum, because of the different members, discussions AND the commercialism.

I like it here, and will continue to come back ;)
 

Pincushion

MissBelladonnahs Property
May 30, 2008
192
1
0
English Midlands
#9
I disagree about the community - there is still a community spirit in MDFF's, not as much as there used to be, but it is still there with the likes of Sinbad & others - you simply need to know where to look. Maybe then, I'm a voice in the wilderness by trying to hang on & keep the community going, or even to try & revive it (as you seem to think its gone). I will carry on until the day it becomes untenable.

I agree that there are less & less people who enjoy their interests posting on here. I can think of at least two Ladies from the Midlands who genuinly enjoy trampling (& other aspects) who no longer post here. The problem is that people can be too inclined to give up easily.
Yes, I guess that you do need to know where to look.

You also need a degree in quantum physics if you're gonna look at stuff that small ;)

It's not a problem with MDFF - I should make that very clear. It's not anyone's *fault*. It just happened all over the net because it's not 1999 any more. I can think of at least one guy and one lady from the Midlands who don't post anywhere that much too. It's not about giving up too easily it's about doing stuff in your own time that's worthwhile - and this whole sort of thing isn't worthwhile at all these days for non commercial producers. My better half and I could post a load of clips on youtube if we wanted.... hell we already have a camcorder and at one time it would have been a blast.

But not any more. Why post on youtube for free?...... For the comments maybe?


"what a wimp - I could take more than that if she stood on my face in stilettos and pulled my teeth out with pliers while she did it."

"You need to have her stand on your left kneecap and shout 'smeeeeee' "

"Don't do it like that do it with heels"

"Don't do it like that do it in bare feet"

or my personal favorite asinine one.... "weight girl?"

or.... "I'll just take a copy of that video and maybe make a profit out of it myself and pretend it was me."

All this happens every time of course and if you are being paid for your content, then in the true tradition of being trampled... "fucking take it" that's the way of the world. But get involved with this for free rather than "give up too easily". Are you kidding???? There are an awful lot of really fun things for a couple to do in this world rather than put themselves through all this crap for all those idiots!

I took a look at a few places on the net which purport to be for the old school posters like myself and guess what? They are veeerrryyy quiet! There's no demand for them. The online community for that sort of thing died some while ago.... although the nearest you are ever going to get to it exists right here in the HTZ on MDFF :)
 

Mistress_B

$ You'll Be Bled Dry $
Feb 7, 2013
413
1
0
East Coast
mistressbellafindom.com
#10
Have Fun, Enjoy It

My better half and I could post a load of clips on youtube if we wanted.... hell we already have a camcorder and at one time it would have been a blast.

But not any more. Why post on youtube for free?...... For the comments maybe?


"what a wimp - I could take more than that if she stood on my face in stilettos and pulled my teeth out with pliers while she did it."

"You need to have her stand on your left kneecap and shout 'smeeeeee' "

"Don't do it like that do it with heels"

"Don't do it like that do it in bare feet"

or my personal favorite asinine one.... "weight girl?"

or.... "I'll just take a copy of that video and maybe make a profit out of it myself and pretend it was me."

All this happens every time of course and if you are being paid for your content, then in the true tradition of being trampled... "fucking take it" that's the way of the world. But get involved with this for free rather than "give up too easily". Are you kidding???? There are an awful lot of really fun things for a couple to do in this world rather than put themselves through all this crap for all those idiots!
If you want to do something that's not commercialized, you can!!
There are LOADS of things you could do for free, and it would be YOUR content. You could start your own free blog posting your own watermarked content. Have a simple banner made to put on your signature here on the forum. That way the people that are interested in your entries, will go and read up on your trampling adventures.

As far as the thought of youtube, you can post your watermarked content, and disable the comments, or choose to have them moderated. You can also use youtube for advertising your blog, for more people to get familiar, and learn about the fetish.

Or you could choose to pay an annual fee for hosting, and have your own website under whatever name is available... example MissBellaDonnahsPincushion.com.... or something like that...lol

If the two of you want to explore those avenues, then DO IT!!! Don't let other people's dumb ass comments rule your decisions on what you want to experiment with! I'd be one of the first ones to check it all out!!

:thumbsup:
 

bfrug

Moderator
Aug 7, 2002
9,520
260
83
SE UK
#11
Yes, I guess that you do need to know where to look.

You also need a degree in quantum physics if you're gonna look at stuff that small ;)
Well, I find it easy-peasy & I do not have any degree's - what I have is common sense & am allowed outdoors without supervision & am also allowed to use a pen instead of crayons.

e.g. - this morning when I logged on there were around 30 new posts in the main section of which I clicked on 9, knowing the others as "commercial/spammy/don't likes". Just something you tend to do with experience.

Having said that, I do see where you are coming from with youtube - it's not so much the fact that people would like to see different content from postedit's the way it's almost demanded. As Mistress B says, you can disable comments, but that's a shame because you then don't get the good comments - moderating the comments takes up time, so you may as well run a website.
 

Pincushion

MissBelladonnahs Property
May 30, 2008
192
1
0
English Midlands
#12
Well, I find it easy-peasy & I do not have any degree's
If something really worthwhile in life seems a little "easy-peasy" then perhaps we should be wondering if we have set the bar a little low for ourselves?

- what I have is common sense & am allowed outdoors without supervision & am also allowed to use a pen instead of crayons.
Yes, most of us received that privelege some time in infant school - time to move on to further education now though! :D

e.g. - this morning when I logged on there were around 30 new posts in the main section of which I clicked on 9, knowing the others as "commercial/spammy/don't likes". Just something you tend to do with experience.
I wouldn't disagree with your experience - but that's not my point at all. Of course there are people making posts here which are not "commercial/spammydon't likes". But that on it's own doesn't make for a community. The sort of community I am talking about has, I repeat, ceased to exist.

Are you a sadomasochistic bestial necrophiliac, bfrug, or are you simply flogging a dead horse? :D ;)
 
Aug 27, 2002
7,189
0
36
Florida
Visit site
#13
Actually I have an interesting theory and it goes like this....the "community" isn't what it used to be due to the makeup of the folks who visit here the most nowadays.

It's no secret I don't have much use for the younger generation (those in their 20's) just because I think they're useless pieces of feces who have been encouraged since birth to take, take, take and never give back anything.

Not that most of them could give back anything of intellectual worth anyway because their whole critical thinking skills and imagination has pretty much been developed from sitting in front of a video game.
 
Last edited:

Pincushion

MissBelladonnahs Property
May 30, 2008
192
1
0
English Midlands
#14
Actually I have an interesting theory and it goes like this....the "community" isn't what it used to be due to the makeup of the folks who visit here the most now these days.

It's no secret I don't have much use for the younger generation (those in their 20's) just because I think they're useless pieces of feces who have been encouraged since birth to take, take, take and never give back anything.

Not that most of them could give back anything of intellectual worth anyway because their whole critical thinking skills and imagination has pretty much developed from sitting in front of a video game.
That sounds like more than an interesting theory: A perfectly valid one. You must be about the same age as me then ;)

I don't know what it's like in the U.S. but over here we use our education system to instill our useless pieces of little feces with an abundance of self worth so that they grow up into useless big pieces of feces with vast overestimations of the value of their personal contributions to life.

Don't get me wrong - I think it very important to encourage children to be self confident and to have self worth. I just think that in order for self worth actually to count for anything then you should be ... welll .... *worth* something in the first place.

But yes - I think that you're probably right, undrneath1: the change in community certainly co-incides with a change in generation. Shame it had to happen though!
 

Mistress_B

$ You'll Be Bled Dry $
Feb 7, 2013
413
1
0
East Coast
mistressbellafindom.com
#15
Ok then...

Actually I have an interesting theory and it goes like this....the "community" isn't what it used to be due to the makeup of the folks who visit here the most now these days.

It's no secret I don't have much use for the younger generation (those in their 20's) just because I think they're useless pieces of feces who have been encouraged since birth to take, take, take and never give back anything.

Not that most of them could give back anything of intellectual worth anyway because their whole critical thinking skills and imagination has pretty much developed from sitting in front of a video game.
The sense of "Community" has changed over the generations, as I have enjoyed hearing all the great stories from my grandparents, great grandparents and such... But my question is...

What does that have to do with the original discussion about commericalism of the forum? Just curious, as this could be seen as perhaps another debatable topic ;)
 
Aug 27, 2002
7,189
0
36
Florida
Visit site
#16
What does that have to do with the original discussion about commericalism of the forum? Just curious, as this could be seen as perhaps another debatable topic ;)
Well the point was there has ALWAYS been commercialism here but in earlier days you had many more contributors whether it was thru just dialogue or original material postings or stories that gave the impression of balancing out what people saw here.

My point in the above posting was today's generation of twentysomethings (that should be the creative ones contributing here) have in effect become the lazy generation whose idea of contributing here is to post a "hey anyone got (insert video clip title here) that I can download for free?"

Another factor is one thing I have changed my view on a bit over the years is the segmenting everything into their own forums. I don't mean trampling vs facesitting since a fan of one doesn't necessarily mean a fan of the other.. I mean separate forums for stories and discussion, etc.

I do think now in hindsight we lost a little bit of the community thing when we separated everything. Yes, it made it easier for people looking for something to find it and yes, it allowed newer postings to stay on home page so everyone could see them before they were bumped to the second page, but those other forums don't generate enough IMHO to stand on their own yet if they were mixed in with the clips and pics forum, it provides more variety and thus less commercialism to the naked eye.

One reason those forums don't generate that much is people think barely anyone visits those forums and so they don't contribute just leading to a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
Last edited:
Aug 27, 2002
7,189
0
36
Florida
Visit site
#17
I don't know what it's like in the U.S. but over here we use our education system to instill our useless pieces of little feces with an abundance of self worth so that they grow up into useless big pieces of feces with vast overestimations of the value of their personal contributions to life.
PC:
Our education system doesn't perform that task here (they're too busy trying to teach students there's no such things as winners or losers in sporting contests)...in this country our parents take on the wonderful task of teaching their demon seed they're god's gifts to mankind.
 
Last edited:

Mistress_B

$ You'll Be Bled Dry $
Feb 7, 2013
413
1
0
East Coast
mistressbellafindom.com
#18
Thank you UN1! I appreciated reading your explanation. It brings a different understanding of the reasons why it has lost some of the "community".

Convienence (making things faster and more efficient) is a continued trend which slowly ruins a variety of aspects of life in general... Not that it's intentional, but the world's future (younger generation included) is unpredictable in many situations....
 

bfrug

Moderator
Aug 7, 2002
9,520
260
83
SE UK
#19
Well the point was there has ALWAYS been commercialism here but in earlier days you had many more contributors whether it was thru just dialogue or original material postings or stories that gave the impression of balancing out what people saw here.

My point in the above posting was today's generation of twentysomethings (that should be the creative ones contributing here) have in effect become the lazy generation whose idea of contributing here is to post a "hey anyone got (insert video clip title here) that I can download for free?"

Another factor is one thing I have changed my view on a bit over the years is the segmenting everything into their own forums. I don't mean trampling vs facesitting since a fan of one doesn't necessarily mean a fan of the other.. I mean separate forums for stories and discussion, etc.

I do think now in hindsight we lost a little bit of the community thing when we separated everything. Yes, it made it easier for people looking for something to find it and yes, it allowed newer postings to stay on home page so everyone could see them before they were bumped to the second page, but those other forums don't generate enough IMHO to stand on their own yet if they were mixed in with the clips and pics forum, it provides more variety and thus less commercialism to the naked eye.

One reason those forums don't generate that much is people think barely anyone visits those forums and so they don't contribute just leading to a self fulfilling prophecy.
For once I agree (& often, we don't). One of the reasons I have always been against too many sections & fragmenting forums, any forums is that once you do that the community spirit (with those that fall by the wayside too easily) soon begins to taper off.
 

ausguy25

Ninjariffic
Aug 8, 2002
4,965
558
113
41
Florida
www.brattyfootgirls.com
#20
I just want to put things in a bit pf perspective about how things have changed in the community/ industry for those who produce content back then and now from my personal point of view not as a producer.

This is just my 2 cents too. Having been a member on Daddos forum since I was 18 (I'm 35 now) back then internet video was almost impossible to find and most producers sales were primarily DVD or video tape. The economy was MUCH stronger back then and there was tens of thousands of dollars selling fetish videos online. Many of the producers could easily afford to share lots of free content and photos because pirating DVDs or videos on a mass scale was extremely hard and rare. The rest of us were more than happy to snap a few free pics with our gf's or wives and share stories. Also many of us were discovering the internet for the first time and realizing we weren't alone, something that really brought us out and made us really want to share our fetish and experiences with one another. It was an amazing time and a magical time for me personally feeling like I wasn't the freak I always thought I was. As the years rolled by the internet became much more technologically advanced, it became easier and easier to get free content online and watch clips free if you really wanted to. This made many producers have to work twice as hard to make what they did before. It was around this time when I grew the balls to jump into the game, I guess I joined at a bad time in the economy and at first I was happy to share lots of free pics (I still am) and long preview clips. This is my fetish and passion after all. However after a while you start finding ALL of your videos on youtube and torrent sites and that kinda stuff really pisses you off. The amount of money you spend on upping your game, whether its lighting, camera equipment or quality of models all of this stuff comes out of pocket. So you have to push harder and harder to shoot this stuff and promote it and you want to give less and less for free. When you quit your day job and decide to shoot fetish for a living it's a scary move that not many people can say they've done but when you're in this game for good you have to pull out all the stops and unfortunately posting daily on forums is a big part of getting your content out there. Not to mention the thousands of new studios that open daily to compete with you. The money gets less and less. It's a balancing act of not wanting to become a big time spammer and wanting people to want to buy your videos because they look awesome. I still try to contribute to threads on here and share stories every now and then. I hope no one considers me a major spammer. I only post once a day with my new clip and always share at least 6-10 free images plus a free 1 min clip on FFT daily.

I guess I'm rambling but I thought it's important to share from someone who started as a fan on these boards as an 18 year old and has gone the full circle to becoming a producer, in how you'd think and feel.

Hope that helps give a little different perspective! :)